I ate my wafer...


Quick thought about the school shooting tradgedy: the shooter wore stolen police body armor. So:

A. Regulating body armor is pretty pointless. So the police need to be able to shoot through it. This isn't a new problem at all, but it is defintely worthy of immediate attention.

B. If I were a police department armorer, I would be testing FN 5.7x28mm weapons, and possibly the new Russian 9x19mm PBP stuff too. Colt SCAMP anyone? Anyway, its high time to start arming police with armor piercing weapons. AP shotgun rounds would be a cheap start, but AP handguns would be best since it wouldn't get left in the car.

C. Maybe some of the 3/4 of a million M14 rifles that were crunched could have been passed out to police departments. Then again, its better for the economy for Springfield Armory to sell new ones, (slighly suspiciously without $270 foreign competition) for $1400 a pop.


  • "its better for the economy for Springfield Armory to sell new ones"

    broken window fallacy

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:59 PM  

  • (Since I'm not Jake, I won't check IP's to see who posted that.)

    My comment about Springfield was intended as pointed sarcasm, I honestly think the crushing, plus the import ban on the Norinco and Armscorp rifles amounts to a giant windfall for Springfield Armory (who also, as a modern company with no connection other than in name, has the additional windfall of owning the trademark to what was the most famous government aresnel name in the free world. This would be equivalent to Tyson foods registering "U.S.D.A Approved" as its trademark.)

    If I was dictator of the solar system, the M14's would have been passed out liberally to law enforcement agencies, and sold in vast number's via the CMP, just like their all but mechanically identical M1 Garand cousins. MIG welding a little blob on each one to make it into a semi-automatic only M1a receiver would have taken less time and money than crushing them...and then selling them at $500-600 a pop through CMP would have been a pretty lucrative.

    American gun manufacturers often see certain gun control measures as possible financial benifits, most notably William Ruger's suggested 15 round capacity cutoff which would have helped his P-85 compete with the Glock, or S&W's behaviour a couple years ago. Less publically, the industry doesn't exactly complain about import regulations that would benifit them, such as the Chinese weapons ban.

    By Blogger Bob, at 6:29 PM  

  • Ok, on the cops need for AP...
    I don't have a lot of love for FN P90, they are not nearly as controlable as FN tries to claim and the 5.7 isn't exactly known for its knock down power (i.e. 5 rounds to the upper torso is recommended to be safe). I can't find them right now but both Keith Pagel and Charlie Cutshaw have written some good articles on the PDW and AP ammo concept and flaws (particularly with Police forces).

    I would say that caring some sort of rifle in cars would be a good idea. Last face it, a M4 or M14 isn't going to have any problem taking anyone down, no matter what they are wearing.

    Another consideration Police have to take into account is over penetration. They have problems in regard to this with issue 9mm, .45 and buckshot (I believe a woman was killed last year when a stray shot pellet penetrated a house wall and window and struck her in the head). I would seem that with highercaliber weapons and especially AP this becomes a bigger concern.

    It would seem that many police departments would probably benefit the most if they simply improved firearm training for their officers, most police can't shoot worth a shit and it would nice to see a little improvement on their accuracy.

    By Blogger Finite, at 11:24 AM  

  • I don't think anyone really knows what to expect from the PDW loads as far as knock down power. (But I would like to read the articles) I don't *think* enough living things have been popped with them to know much. Since I do think fragmenting M193 55 grain ball is pretty decent, and have basically the same feel for the tumbling 5.45x39 stuff, I'm not going to rule out the possibility of a small diameter PDW round that tumbles or fragments nicely.

    Usually from a legal perspective, over penetration isn't nearly as big of a deal as complete misses. As you point out, most police officers really can't shoot that well...witnessed by most ever shooting report you'll ever see. (19 out of 41 rounds hit Amadou Diallo from what, 20 feet away?) For that matter at least a few of the overpenetration cases I can think of are arm or leg hits...

    Was there a successful lawsuit in the stray buckshot case? I'm VERY curious about overpenetration liability at the moment.

    Anyway, back to the AP thing. How about issuing one magazine of hot AP stuff...like that russian load, or similar to each officer to carry as a spare in a seperate pouch. Do the same for the shotguns? Almost like "in case of fire break glass", but more..."in case you know there is armor involved, load this".

    I argued with a LEO friend of mine that his rural department should simply buy and issue either the cheapest SKS's or M38/m44 carbines that they could find...at $40-$100 a pop that's a pretty cheap way to get some AP in the backs of their police cars. The nice thing about it, is everyone shoots a rifle better anyway, and espicially with M38/M44's...you aren't exactly going to wildly spray rounds downrange...

    By Blogger Bob, at 10:33 AM  

  • Oh, and I'm also discussing overpentration here...http://www.blogger.com/publish-comment.do?blogID=11183770&postID=111088123885820234&r=ok

    By Blogger Bob, at 10:34 AM  

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